General Topics: Messiah Worship

Shalom everyone… I wanted to begin a discussion with those who frequent this page.  Please feel free to chime in as you desire. However, do not get rude or testy and you posts will remain on the site.

Topic!

1) Where do we see in the Tanach (“OT”) that we are to worship Messiah?

2) Where in the Tanach does it say that we are to look for one to die for our sins?

3) Where does it say, in the Tanach, that those who do not accept Yeshua/Jesus as personal Lord and Savior will die and burn in hell?

Rules… ALL ANSWERS FROM THE TANACH. No answers from the NT.. why??? Because Matthew 5 says that Yeshua brought no changes, and Hebrew 4 says that the same gospel was preached to those of Moses day, and Galatians 3 agrees that it is the same gospel, and John3 ,Yeshua teaches Nickademos how to be born again with only the Tanach. And the Behreans only had the Tanach and they were seen as the most respected of the “sects”.

So, if it was good enough for them.. then it is good enough for us.

All NT answers will be scrubbed. Only use Tanach answers.


22 Comments

  1. Jgilbert

    Remember… Be Behrean… use the Tanach.

    • Hi Jeff,
      You have opened a subject regarding worship of Messiah for discussion. I might be interested to jump in with my thoughts and biblical research or, for sure, I would want to read the discussion by you and others.

      QQQ are you only using reference of Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah subject = I ask that question because the job of Messiah was Moses and even David was seen as Messiah. Reading in the Tanach, Moses wasn’t “worshiped” by the people, since obedience and grumbling they did in the wilderness. However, they revered David as King, but he was hunted like a criminal before he became a king. While King, Nathan called him down about his behavior. I do not see that these 2 characters were worshiped. Given this, my answer would be not to worship Messiahs. We are to worship the Creator.

      • hi kay,
        great response, never thought of messiah that way, Cyrus is called messiah as well & he was not worshipped either

      • Jgilbert

        Yes Kay…. All Kings were “anointed” as were all High Priests. The term Messiah is a very common one. And we are never told that we are to worship them, only worship the “One who sends”. 🙂

        • Jeff, the “One who sends” -could that be in a broad spectrum? Yeshua could be considered as one who sends because he sent his talmidum into the world to spread the message of teshuva. Did the “One who sends” send Yeshua into the world? Just wondereing how far the “one who sends” can be taken? thanks

          • Jgilbert

            Well, if you look at Yeshua’s own words… he said.. “I do nothing except my Father tells me”…. so.. who is really the sender?

    • Isaiah tells us another story, Yah asks who has required blood & burnt sacrifices? I am sick of these vain oblations, wash yourself & obey, though your sins be as scarlet, you will be white as snow… I understand this to say Yah no longer wanted blood, although it also reads like he never required it, it was a vain ritual combined with repentance, but when the repentance was no longer sincere, Yah had no use or desire for Temple sacrifice. Looking at this towards Yeshua, if Yah wants repentance more than sacrifice, i see no need for blood, much less the blood of human sacrifice. A look at the word sacrifice might shed some light on the blood sacrifice of Yeshau

      . Food is very important through-out the Old Testament, it begins in the Garden of Eden, & according to Judeo-Christian beliefs was an integral part of mans first sin. We see Noah instructed to take seven clean animals into the ark, the first thing Naoh does when he comes off the ark is is build an altar, the hebrew word for altar is mzabach, from the root word zabach, translated sacrifice, what is done on the altar is cook a meal. (Gen 31:54) also gives us the same Hebrew words zabach for sacrifice but this time we are told they ate, we do not have to guess what is done with the sacrifice. We also read where God tells Israel (Ex 34:15) not to eat the food sacrificed to idols and not to drink the blood. Cutting or slaughtering was part of the ancient covenant practice that provided the meal between the parties involved. Ex 23:32 uses covenant language, implying eating food sacrificed to idols was part of a covenant ritual.

      • Jgilbert

        Yes, true.. And in Hoseas, which is really a related section of texts, we see similar terms… The issue was and is that His children are stiff-necked and driven astray by their wanton acts of harlotry with other gods. When we learn that YHVH, alone, He is God and there is none beside Him then we will see real change in the hearts of His children.

  2. Patricia Thomas

    These verses in Daniel speak of eternal life.
    Daniel 12:1-3
    12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting [a]contempt. 3 [b]Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the [c]expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and

    • Hi Patricia,
      I am from a fundamental christian tradition, I wanted to let you know the church fathers never believed Daniel to be real, it was a folktale, full of inaccurate history, written in stages over several hundred years. It was written to help the Jews have hope of a better life than the diaspora they were living in. So they made up folktales about fiery furnaces & lions den. The people of the Ancient Near East all believed in heavenly people intervening in the lives of humans, so we have the same type of characters in Daniel as well, But Jews changed them from “gods” to angels..Anyway if you check the historical evidence in Daniel you will see he has the wrong kings listed, and wrong timelines. another question to consider is why didnt Daniel leave & go back to Jerusalem? He was free to leave anytime according to Cyrus the Greats decree. If he loved the holy city so much why didnt he go back & help rebuild it? He says he was from royalty in Judah, of the kings seed, it stands to reason he would have a responsibility to return just like Ezra & Nehemiah.
      It is difficult to defend Daniel when he writes information that contradicts other books of the bible as well as other ancient written documents.

      • Jgilbert

        Not believing Daniel to be “Real” is not actually true. They didn’t believe it was equal tot he Torah in that it never uses the phrase “Thus Saith YHVH”. That is why they think it less important. However, it was included in more canons. So, although there is a different view on Daniel as a whole from SOME within the Rabbinate, it is not thrown away in total.Those that have issue with Daniel just take it with a dose of salt. And yes.. Daniel didn’t return with Ezra and Nehemia.. which is more than a little odd

        • Shalom, maybe my statement was misunderstood, I was referring to the “church” not the rabbinate, but there are Rabbinate as well that do not regard Daniel as a single living person, but was written by more than one author over several hundred years, long after the boy Daniel would have been dead. But coming from a “church” background I was taught & believed the book of Daniel to be completely true, inerrant & accurate. I realized for myself that the history Daniel provides for dating does not match the narratives of Ezra or 2 Chron. this led me on a search to discover non-biblical support in history. The evidence did not support Daniel, it was from here I discovered the “church fathers” do not regard the book as historical but a novel. However, these same people also regard Jonah as folktale as well. This is not my theory or opinion, it is evidence found in the Bible & non-biblical sources. I personally wanted to believe Daniel, however I now have questions, just like I once had questions about the sabbath day.

          • Jgilbert

            oh.. sure.. understood… The main issues with Daniel is that people dont really understand the whole Weeks and half weeks type of talk in the texts… I will be posting a podcast from Tovia Singer later that will be directly speaking to teh issues within Daniel.. Look for it, Tovia Singer on Daniel. I have heard it several times and it is very well presented, although the audio quality is locking somewhat.

          • Thanks, i will be looking for it, i havnt given any time to listening or reading anything other then the bible for over a year, in this year the scripture has changed my thinking & understanding dramatically, some one told me to listen to you & Ira about a month ago, I did, didnt know there were others who were reconsidering their beliefs, was feeling very alone, not welcome in the traditional church or messianic church, and feel awkward in the jewish synagogue…dont have a Karite fellowship locally but I might would fit in this type of group, truly leaning towards Torah only.. Thanks for opening the can, it needed to be brought out

  3. Jgilbert

    Patricia….. Which question(s) do the Daniel verses address?

  4. I have looked for over a year, cannot find anything remotely close, but where in Torah do we find Jerusalem? Where do we find Judah as leader? If Yah would not allow Aaron & Moshe to enter the land over disobedience, why would he allow a a forbidden Moabite to rule his people? a Moabite who is a murderer & adulterer, both of which required death according to Torah? Does God change?

    • Jgilbert

      well.. Judah as leader would be Gen 49. and Jerusalem.. all over.. what at you trying to find about Jerusalem? It is literally mentioned throughout the Tanach. One place I can think of right off the top of my head is Ezekial 40-46 dealing with the Temple, is at Jerusalem… for example.

  5. Maybe I was misunderstood, I realize we tend to group Torah with Tanach, I was asking about “Torah”. I do not always accept the status quo interpretation of scripture anymore. I know Judah interprets gen 49 as they recieve the sceptre.. but the word scepter is translated in the English 140 times as “tribe” and only 10 times as sceptre, this does make me question the translation as sceptre in light of the firstborn blessing was given to Ephraim, making him also the leader. Immediately following that translation we read “until Shiloh come”. Shiloh was where the central worship center was after entering the land , located in Ephraim, Joshua was an Ephramite & Moshe gave the leadership to him. For me this all begs another look at the status quo. So my question is where in Torah do we see Jerusalem as the center of worship for Israel?

    • Jgilbert

      so.. in the first five books? we don’t, specifically. We are told that where He places His name… And since we were told that the Temple of Solomon was “indwelt” then I “ASSUME” that it was the place where He placed His name. But, the Gen 49… I actually agree with the textual interpretation that Shiloh is the “Law Protector” and Until this Shiloh comes, Judah is supposed to teach those that Joseph brings to Israel. I do understand the view that says that Shiloh is the only place we are to recorgnise, but… if you view Solomon’s temple as “indwelt”, then you need to allow for Shiloh to be updated. Since Shiloh isnt really mentioned as a place in the 5 books either. imho

      • my understanding is Shiloh did in fact come, they arrived at Shiloh in Ephraim, with an Ephramite leader, hence the first born as the leader with with the double inheritance as prophesied. if we say this was a prophetic blessing pronounced to Judah, then would it not stand to reason it was fulfilled. could we say he tells us where he is placing his name……until “Shiloh” comes..

  6. Deborah

    my answer to the 3 questions is simple,, nowhere

Leave a Reply